In this episode of BuiltForward, I sit down with Chuck Mazzanti, who leads the construction practice at Christensen Group, a 100% employee-owned insurance and risk management firm. Chuck is also the founder of the Construction ESOP Collective and a passionate advocate for employee ownership in the construction industry. We explore why construction companies are particularly well-suited to employee ownership, how Employee Stock Ownership Plans (ESOPs) work, and when they make sense as an alternative to private equity, strategic acquisitions, or family succession. We also dig into the practical realities of transitioning a construction business to employee ownership, including valuation, financing, bonding capacity, insurance, and the importance of culture and communication. Beyond ESOPs, we discuss the coming wave of retirements in construction, how companies can preserve decades of institutional knowledge before experienced employees leave, and the opportunities and challenges AI presents for the industry. It's a wide-ranging conversation about ownership, succession, risk, technology, and what it takes to build construction companies that endure.
In this episode of BuiltForward, I sit down with Chuck Mazzanti, who leads the construction practice at Christensen Group, a 100% employee-owned insurance and risk management firm. Chuck is also the founder of the Construction ESOP Collective.
We explore why construction companies are particularly well-suited to employee ownership, how Employee Stock Ownership Plans (ESOPs) work, and how they compare with private equity and other succession options.
We also discuss the practical realities of ESOP transactions, including valuation, financing, bonding capacity, and insurance, along with the importance of building an ownership culture.
Beyond ESOPs, we explore the coming wave of retirements in construction, the challenge of preserving institutional knowledge, and how AI and emerging technologies could reshape the industry.
00:00 – Introduction to Chuck Mazzanti and Christensen Group
02:00 – Chuck's background and how he found his way into construction insurance
05:00 – Understanding the complexities of insuring contractors
07:00 – Why employee ownership is particularly relevant to construction
10:00 – Chuck's personal experience with ESOPs and the financial benefits of employee ownership
16:00 – How ESOP transactions affect financing, balance sheets, and bonding capacity
20:00 – Building an employee ownership culture and getting buy-in
22:00 – When does an ESOP make sense for a construction company?
25:00 – ESOPs vs. private equity: Valuation, liquidity, and owner priorities
28:00 – Employee retention and the potential advantages of employee ownership
30:00 – How construction companies are valued in ESOP transactions
33:00 – What separates well-managed contractors from higher-risk businesses
37:00 – How safety, risk management, and insurance can create competitive advantages
41:00 – The relationship between insurance, surety, and bonding capacity
44:00 – The coming retirement wave and the challenge of attracting younger talent
47:00 – How contractors are adopting AI and emerging technologies
50:00 – Preserving institutional knowledge before experienced workers retire
55:00 – AI, workforce concerns, and the importance of bringing employees along
58:00 – What construction might look like in 10 years
1:01:00 – Final thoughts on embracing change and opportunity
Jason Jacobs: [00:00:00] Welcome to BuiltForward, the podcast exploring where construction is heading over the next decade and how AI and other emerging technologies will and won't transform the industry. I'm Jason Jacobs, a longtime startup founder, investor, and the host. Let's get into it
Today's guest is Chuck Mazzanti, who leads the construction practice at Christenson Group, 100% employee-owned insurance and risk management firm.
Chuck has spent much of his career working with contractors, which gives him a unique window into how these businesses actually operate, the risks they take, the financial and operational pressures they face, and what separates the best-run shops from everyone else. He's also the founder of the Construction ESOP Collective, where he's become a passionate advocate for employee ownership in the construction industry.
In this episode, we talk about why construction companies are particularly [00:01:00] well-suited to employee ownership, when an ESOP makes sense and when it doesn't, how an ownership transition can affect a contractor's balance sheet and bonding capacity, and how ESOPs compare with private equity and other exit paths for contractors.
We also get into AI, the coming wave of retirements in construction, and a problem that I keep coming back to, which is how do you capture decades of judgment sitting in the heads of your best people before it walks out the door? It's a great episode, and I hope you enjoy it. Chuck, welcome to the show.
Chuck Mazzanti: Appreciate you having me on, Jason
Jason Jacobs: Thanks for coming. Yeah, we, we hadn't spoken before, although we just took 45 minutes here up front and, uh, and got to know each other a bit. So we, we did an episode before an episode. I've, I've never done that before.
Chuck Mazzanti: yeah. Well, welcome to the peril of talking to Chuck. I've, I've been told I talk too much, so you've been, you've been pulled into that. But yeah, appreciated the, uh, background
Jason Jacobs: Yeah. Well, um, really interested [00:02:00] to, to speak with you. Um, as we were discussing before, it sounds like we're on some parallel journeys but coming from very different perspectives. Uh, you know, you've been servicing the construction world a long time, and seems like you're doing so through a couple of different lanes.
You've got, of course, the, you know, the insurance and risk management, and then, uh, and then on the other side, you're getting more involved, um, with the ESOPs. I don't know if that's a professional pursuit or just a passion pursuit, um, but, uh, but it seems like you've got the dual-pronged effort, and it's super interesting to me to understand each of those better and also how they go together.
So, um, so yeah, just grateful for you making the time.
Chuck Mazzanti: Yeah. No, you're r- it's... I, I would say on the ESOP side it's, it's both a professional pursuit backed by, uh, real passion, I, I would say. And we could get into that later on in the episode, but it's, it's one of those things that it's like, hey, you, you talk about or put a bunch of time in regardless of if it was part of your [00:03:00] career or not.
And so I'm, I'm working way more than I ever have, but I, you know, I, I just feel, uh, invigorated every day getting the message out
Jason Jacobs: Well, how'd you find your way into the trades?
Chuck Mazzanti: Yeah. So I, you know, my, my insurance journey, um, you know, I got started in kind of a unfortunate circumstance. My grandfather owned a small agency, northwest suburb of Chicago, uh, a town called Palatine, and I was working there part-time while I was going to, you know, college, and it was a family business, so my dad was involved in the business.
And then unfortunately, on, uh, May 1st of 2011, my dad suddenly passed away. And so at that point I was kinda at a crossroads, right? My mom was already deceased, so I was pretty young, lost my other parent. And so, uh, my grandfather was like, "Hey, you know, come into the agency full time," and, you know, wanted to carry my dad's legacy forward.
So I did, but it wasn't in the trades at [00:04:00] that time. It was actually, believe it or not, a lot of car dealerships, um, in or around Chicago a lot, like up and down Cicero Avenue and, and Lawrence Avenue and, you know, you've probably seen them if you've driven those parts of Chicago.
Jason Jacobs: I haven't. I did run the Chicago Marathon, but I've never driven those parts of Chicago.
Chuck Mazzanti: Yeah. So it's-- I mean, it was a great learning experience. It, it-- I dealt with people from very diverse backgrounds, um, you know, kinda commodity-type buyers and, you know, learned how to navigate that, and turned out to really have a passion for that community and, and still to this day have a lot of friends that own car dealerships and so forth.
So, but i- you know, a couple years in, I realized family business wasn't, wasn't for me. So then I, I went to another agency, which I just kinda stumbled into insuring a couple contractors and, and really having a passion for it just 'cause it's not vanilla. It's [00:05:00] quite the opposite. There's, you know, a lot-- Like a standing kind of statement in the insurance world is if you can insure a contractor, you can probably insure any other type of business just because the complexity, every job, you know, is different, different crews, different types of hazard with the scope of work, whether it's, you know, a specialty trade, a, a general contractor and, and so forth.
And so I really took a liking to the trades at that point and have devoted myself kinda ever since.
Jason Jacobs: Uh-huh. And, um, uh, and, uh, are th- um, when it comes to insurance in the trades, are there many different types of insurance or are there a few key types that, that, you know, is it, is it like two or three that, that cover 80% of the circumstances
Chuck Mazzanti: Yeah, I mean, you have the driving core lines of insurance that everyone's gonna need, um, [00:06:00] your general liability, your umbrella, your workman's comp. Um, so those are, you know, auto liability for their fleet or even if their employees are driving their own vehicles for the scope of business, you should still have something called hired and non-owned.
So those are, are gonna be your bread and butter, and I don't care if that's construction or a flower shop or, or whatever, those are your core lines of coverage. Then there's a lot of specialty coverages aside from that. You got, you know, builders risk insurance for course of construction. You have, you know, OSIPs or CSIPs depending on is it the owner, you know, developer or the contractor.
It's kinda ensuring all the trades on the project. Um, you have parametric insurance that'll kinda have a trigger instead of, you know, let's say there was a fire on the, the job site which is covered by traditional insurance usually is a covered peril, we'll call it. I'll, I'll do my best, [00:07:00] Jason, not to, to geek out on insurance speak but, um, with parametric the trigger to the policy will be a parameter of, all right, if it rains more than one inch in this set aside time the policy will p- will pay.
That's a more nuanced coverage that contractors are starting to take advantage of, um, and then it could get really complicated really quick with different types of self-insurance, whether it be a group captive, a single parent captive. There's a bunch of varieties in those, um, options as well.
Jason Jacobs: Uh-huh. And then where does the ESOP stuff, um, fit into all of this?
Chuck Mazzanti: Yeah. So, I mean, ESOP, you know, employee stock ownership plans, they're-- there's maybe 6,600 total ESOPs in the country about, Jason, and a third of those are comprised of contractors. And when I say contractors, I'm, I'm including [00:08:00] architects and engineers in that. I don't really split those out. So construction in the A&E field.
So it's, it's... I mean, when you're talking about a third of a, a niche community, and I specialize in construction, I actually lead our construction practice group at Christensen Group Insurance, it just made a lot of sense. Um, furthermore, we as a agency are 100% S corp ESOP since 2006. So not only do we specialize in it from ensuring those types of companies and understanding the nuance of what makes an ESOP contractor better than maybe another contractor and communicating that in the marketplace to yield better and more favorable results from premium charge, additional types of coverages, making sure, you know, the directors and officers and fiduciary is, is written correctly because there's serious gaps when you sell your company to an, uh, [00:09:00] employee stock ownership plan, um, that you don't have as like a privately held company.
But also since we're an ESOP and we're a mature ESOP at this point, 20 years in, there's a lot of nuance from repurchase obligations and investing that tax-free income in attracting and retaining talent and are we gonna acquire other companies or grow through strategic hires? How do you open up new markets?
We live it every day, and that's, that knowledge is invaluable to be able to consult with other ESOP-owned contractors or companies.
Jason Jacobs: Uh-huh. And, um, and what came first, your passion for ESOPs or working for a company that, um, that is i- in itself an ESOP?
Chuck Mazzanti: Yeah, the, the, the chicken or the egg. Yeah, it was... I, I mean, to be transparent with you, I didn't know much about ESOPs until coming to Christensen Group. I, I heard of them, you know, at, at my [00:10:00] previous employer, we would have investment bankers that specialized in ESOP formations come in and talk about it.
But it, it was more from the standpoint of, hey, if someone goes ESOP, it's good for you because you could still insure them. Um, but if they sell to, like, a private equity or a strategic, that insurance placement's gonna go with whoever insures those entities, so usually you lose it as a client. So it was a little bit more, I'll say, self-serving.
Um, so I didn't... That, that was my understanding of it. Um, and then one day, Charlie Christensen, our, our CEO, called me after my previous employer made a couple other acquisitions and said, "Hey, you know, is it... Are you tired of, like, the internal competition being s- like higher than the external?" Meaning, you know, if you have a prospect you're chasing, Jason, for a long time, sales cycle is long, right?
If you're, if you're chasing $100 million or a billion dollar contractor, they don't just give you their insurance [00:11:00] overnight, right? You're meeting them at networking events, you're taking them golfing, clay shooting, probably doing a bunch of free consulting to prove that you know what you're talking about.
It could be a multi-year process. And then if your agency acquires another agency that has that prospect in their book of business, now that's not a prospect for you anymore. So that five-year chase and tens of thousands of dollars and dozens and dozens of hours spent You're SOL, right? So I was like, "Yeah, you know what?
I, I kinda am." And so Charlie showed me the peek behind the curtain on, like, the financials of what the ESOP plan means to the employee owners of Christensen Group and what it would mean for me and my family for, you know, I got another 30 years in the tank. So he modeled it out, and it's not... We're not talking about 5 or 10 grand, Jason.
We're talking about millions and, and maybe dozens of millions of dollars. So it's, it's life-changing money [00:12:00] for me, but also more importantly, my family. Um, and so I drank the Kool-Aid, and now two-plus years later, I got involved in every ESOP association you could think of. I'm actually, um, the incoming president of the Illinois ESOP Association, uh, as of January of 2027, so I'm excited about that.
And it's, it's just been the most open community I've ever been a part of in my career, and yes, at my own agency, but all these other companies, because everyone has challenges, whether it's a $2 billion ESOP or a $40 million ESOP. If you just went ESOP, you're like, "How do we get our employee owners to really realize they have ownership and they should operate differently?"
Or you're 30 years in and you're like, "How do we manage these repurchase obligations of buying out employee owners while still staying financially viable and [00:13:00] balancing things and, and de-risking if the market turns?" And obviously today, you know, fuel cost and tariffs and, and so forth. So it's, it's a complex thing to navigate, and the communities welcome me with, with open arms, and the conversations I've had and just the, the openness and the welcoming-ness of the community's been the, the coolest thing of my professional career.
Jason Jacobs: So I, I have some ESOP-specific questions, but before I get there, I just wanna understand. So, um, so you have the, you know, you run the construction practice for this insurance firm, and then the, the ESOP stuff, um, uh, it, it seems like that's, um, that's on a volunteer basis. You're involved with some of different organizations that help promote, um, the growth of ESOPs and provide a community for people that are doing ESOPs and things like that.
Is, is that right?
Chuck Mazzanti: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, it's like anything else. So like in, in construction you have no shortage [00:14:00] of industry associations that band either the construction community together, um, or more niche, right? So like I'm, I'm a part of those as well. You know, you have the underground contractor of, of Illinois that I'm a part of.
You have CFMA Chicagoland, but also nationally that I'm a part of. So similar to these contractor associations, you have associations specific to ESOPs. And so that's, that's what I'm talking about in terms of participating in those and, and being a member of those associations, but then also being very active in them
Jason Jacobs: And, um, with the insurance, do you specifically target, um, clients that are ESOPs?
Chuck Mazzanti: Yeah, my, my book of business and, and the stuff I chase, it's, it's not all ESOPs obviously. I feel I'm, I'm probably one of maybe a dozen people in the country that, that have my level of expertise just from lived experience [00:15:00] and being a part of Christensen Group. There's, you know, a couple other 100% S corp ESOP insurance agencies that are competitors of ours that are very good.
They're f- I would call them friendly competitors. Outside of that, there's some other specialists, but they're either privately held or publicly traded or backed by private equity. So they, they may be good at the insurance piece of it, but they're not, they're not living in an ESOP like I am. And so I w- I would be silly not to target ESOP companies with that expertise, but I do have, you know, dozens of privately held construction companies that are just, you know, family run and owned, multi-generation.
Um, so it's kind of both
Jason Jacobs: So from an insurance standpoint, if I were an owner and wanted to pursue an ESOP or I was considering it, um, what are the implications from an insurance standpoint? What, what's different about it? What are the pros? What are the cons?[00:16:00]
Chuck Mazzanti: Yeah, I mean, it's... If you're a heavily bonded contractor, you, you definitely wanna get your surety in the room before you do the transaction, because depending on the debt load, essentially you're getting the equity out of the business to facilitate selling the company to a trust, which is an employee stock ownership plan, which is a retirement plan.
But that, the trust holds the shares that then are distributed to the employee owners as they vest over time. And then the capital stack, and I'm not gonna pretend to be an investment banker, but I'll give you a, kinda like a l- a, a CliffsNotes version of it. You have traditional banks that will lend on a certain portion of the buyout.
Then you'll have, in, in construction, usually seller financing is a big component of it, and then you could have mezzanine financing above and beyond which the cost of capital gets, gets pretty high. [00:17:00] So, seller financing is a big component, especially if they're heavily bonded because the balance sheet on paper flips, and so the surety's gonna, you know, could get a little squeamish.
And so it's getting that surety in the room, making sure they understand they have expertise dealing with other ESOP contractors and how they manage that, and then modeling it out and saying, "Okay, is the owner still involved? Is the management team still involved?" 'Cause essentially, oftentimes, Jason, it's the same company the day before and the day after an ESOP transaction.
It's just the owner got some level of liquidity, whether they went 30% ESOP, 50%, 100%. So it's just I- it's like on paper, right? And so how do you manage that? And that's, you know, the biggest thing. 15 years ago it was a more of an issue, Jason. The sureties have come around. The ESOP community has done a really good job of educating the different [00:18:00] sureties.
But I, I still see it where an agent doesn't know what they're doing, the contractor didn't include the agent or the surety in the conversation. They go ESOP, and then they say, "Oh, by the way, we did this." That's the worst thing you could ever do. So that's, that's the surety piece of it. Your general, you know, work comp, general liability, all those core lines I mentioned a, a few minutes ago, those aren't on paper too impacted.
Um, but I, I would still argue you wanna make sure that the insurance carriers understand that, you know, the sale happened and make sure the policies reflect it. And then the other biggest thing to contemplate is the directors' and officers' insurance, the employment practice liability insurance, the fiduciary and crime, because that changes significantly from a private company to an employee-owned company, and so you wanna make sure those policies are [00:19:00] structured to contemplate the new ownership structure.
Um, and oftentimes, privately held contractors aren't, aren't carrying D&O or directors and officers, so now they have to contemplate a new coverage that they historically didn't have
Jason Jacobs: Uh, one question that comes to mind is I've, I... As I've been exploring the tech- the technology side, the digital technology side, when it comes to tooling, everyone warns that, you know, don't, don't start, uh, you know, if it's a, you know, don't start at the holding company and jam it out to the field. Don't start at the owner and jam it out, you know, um, uh, to, to the field.
Like s- you know, start at the field and work backwards. If the field doesn't embrace it, like it's not gonna get adopted. Does that same dynamic exist when it comes to something like this, like ownership structures and, um, you know, what are the pros and cons to employees, and how do employees typically feel about the concept of doing ESOP relative to either staying the course or, or a more, um, you know, traditional [00:20:00] private equity buyer?
Chuck Mazzanti: Yeah, I would say it's every contractor's different, and communication and culture are number one and number two to make sure that the transition is successful and the uptake on the mindset and all the benefits to the ESOP are integrated sooner rather than later. But you also have to be realistic that, um, it's a foreign thing.
You still have... You know, if you have a hundred million dollar backlog and you go ESOP, now you have another thing you have to manage, but that backlog didn't shrink and the work in progress didn't shrink. So you still have to operate as you did pre-sale, but now you have another thing to tackle. And so, um, you just gotta be diligent about are we gonna set up a communications committee, which I would recommend.
How are we gonna communicate that we're now employee-owned? What does that mean? What does that not mean? And then start [00:21:00] methodically rolling out and making sure everyone's on the same page, because otherwise people are gonna be like, "All right, so we're... I, I own this thing now? So I want, I want that S550 Mercedes."
And it's like, "No, you, you're an employee owner, but you don't get to all of a sudden start making, you know, buying decisions that you, you know, couldn't pre when you were privately held." Like, you're still an employee, but you're just a, a part owner as you continue to work. And so I, I think for as good as it is, you also have to be realistic with the employee owners and tell them like y- your feedback's validated and, and important, but you're not steering the ship.
You don't get to say, "We're gonna bid on this project and not that project." Your day-to-day isn't changing, but now you just get this additional retirement benefit that over time is, is real life-changing money.
Jason Jacobs: Mm-hmm. And, um, I know you're a big ESOP [00:22:00] proponent. Uh, you know, should every shop be an ESOP or, um, or are there certain shops that it is a good fit for and other shops that it isn't? And how do you know as an owner?
Chuck Mazzanti: Yeah, I think it's, it's such a complex thing and it's very misunderstood that I say it, you know, on, on my podcast all the time. I... Just 'cause I'm a proponent of ESOPs, I don't think it's for everyone. I just want people to kick the tires on it and learn about it from people that understand it, so then you could judge it based on what your exit plan is, and it may fit that, it may not.
But you're o- most people only sell a company once. So if you're, if you're doing it for the first time and you got three buddies that sold to private equity Maybe you're aligned with them, maybe you're not. So, like, you're only hearing their perspective [00:23:00] of what they're willing to share. So I, I just think it would behoove business owners to make sure they, they vet out every option available, and then from there make a decision that's what's best for them and their family.
And I would never fault anyone for selling to private equity if that's what's best for them, or selling to a strategic, or letting the next generation take it over, or going, going ESOP. And so who ESOP is not for, Jason, if you're too small, that would be one of the, the biggest preclusions in my opinion.
Um, you have attorneys that have their hand in the pot. You're gonna have a trustee. You're gonna have a valuation company. There's a lot of professional services that, that you need to utilize to have this transaction happen. And so the frictional cost is such that, you know, if you're half a million dollars in top-line revenue, there's just not enough money there to make it go.
[00:24:00] And it's, it's not a big enough enterprise, and it's probably not operationalized enough that you don't wanna just haphazardly go ESOP. You gotta be, you gotta be a well-run business. So if you're too small, I would say anything under a million and a half of EBITDA, it, it probably wouldn't work or you gotta have a really good reason growth story that you're a million and a half EBITDA today, but you'll be two million next year and you- you're kinda on a hockey stick of good solid growth.
That would be one. The other, if you just wanna take your money and run, like you, you want the sale on a Friday and by Monday you're in the Cayman Islands and you don't wanna hear about it from anyone, maybe an ESOP isn't, isn't the best plan. There's ways to structure it that if you have a, a succession plan with your key operational leaders, it could still be done and some do and it's successful.
But you really wanna see, especially if it's a heavily bonded operation, [00:25:00] you really wanna see an owner that's willing to stick around a little bit and help the company through the transition, and they're probably gonna do some seller financing. So if you got money at risk, you're probably gonna wanna be there to make sure your investment in the company is protected.
And so that would be the other thing. If someone's just looking for an exit overnight, doesn't really care if their name sticks around, doesn't really care if their employees are taken care of or not, then, you know, maybe the, the PE route would, would be a better option
Jason Jacobs: Uh-huh. I, I mean, I talked to one investment banker and he said he actually got together with, um, you know, more of an ESOP consultant, and they were comparing notes, and the ESOP guy asked him, um, "Hey, it seems like the clients, you know, it seems like all the clients, like price isn't the most important thing.
Is that what you're seeing too?" And the investment banker was like, "No." Like, like, "My clients want, you know, the, the absolute [00:26:00] highest dollar that they can possibly get." And the reason you're seeing that is that, is that probably, you know, the ones that, that self-select into pursuing the ESOP path are not, you know, optimizing only for, for price.
Is, is that your e- experience as well? Um, in, in terms... Like, what would you say, uh, um, w- where would you say that, that optimizing for price fits into the ESOP calculus, if at all?
Chuck Mazzanti: I mean, it absolutely does. It's not a non-for-profit, right? The- these owners deserve to be paid a, a good payday for all the risk that they took on, right? Not every business works. So if you spend a decade, two decades, three decades, or multi-generations of building something and you have a lot of your wealth in it, uh, you're, uh...
I don't think there's anything wrong with getting a huge payday for taking on that risk and probably sacrificing early on maybe some vacations and working 100-hour work weeks. And [00:27:00] if the business didn't go, guess what? All that money and time you invested, it's gone. You know? So there's a ton of different structures and, and a big caveat, Jason, is I'm not on the finance side, so I could tell you from my understanding, but if you wanted to get super into the weeds, there's people that have more expertise than I do.
But if, if you're looking at multiples within construction of EBITDA, you know, an ESOP transaction, it's, it's gotta be fair market value. And that's... What's fair market value? There's a lot of things that go into it, and it's a moving target. But if you're hearing PE pay 20 times EBITDA, ESOP's gonna be tough to, to meet that, right?
They're just not gonna find the, the comps in the market that are gonna show, like, that's fair market value. That was probably a little bit frothy. And so in that case, if, [00:28:00] if that owner wants just the biggest paycheck and they could get that, the market will... the PE market will bear that, then your, your thesis of depending on who you're talking to may gravitate to the highest dollar.
But all things being equal, yeah, I would say a lot of the people, if you were to do a debrief after they sold to the employees, why'd you do it? And, and money wasn't probably the number one, but it, it probably was number two or number three
Jason Jacobs: Hmm. Um, I'm curious. I mean, it seems like, um, it, it's, it seems like there's a lot of attrition in these shops. You, you probably know the stats better than I do. I, in fact, I'd, I'd love to look into what the stats are to the extent that they're quantified somewhere. But I'm curious, um, what attrition looks like in an ESOP shop versus, uh, a non-ESOP, and if there's a notable difference.
Chuck Mazzanti: There is a notable difference. I should know the number. It's [00:29:00] escaping me right now. Um, one of the associations that we're a part of, the NCEO, they do a lot of joint, um, research projects with Rutgers and a couple other universities, so they have empirical evidence and do deep dives and studies on this.
So you could find it, and the guy who leads that, his name's Corey Rosen. I mean, they're, they're one of the best just industry resources to really bear out some of these metrics. But I, I don't wanna quote it, Jason, 'cause I don't wanna screw it up, but I mean, the turnover is if it's, if it's not half the, the average of like a, a PE-backed firm, it's not that far off.
I mean, turnover is just significantly less in the employee ownership model, and that's, that's across all industries, construction, manufacturing, healthcare, you know, professional services. I don't believe there's been a study specific [00:30:00] to construction ESOPs. I'm... Eventually, I'll probably get there through my, my podcast and, and the connections.
I'd like to start doing some more specific stuff to construction. But it's notably less turnover within ESOP organizations than, you know, private equity or even, even privately held for that matter.
Jason Jacobs: And, um, when it comes to private equity, I mean, they have their own diligence process, and then they determine the valuation or they negotiate the valuation with the, um, with the owner. Um, uh, and of course, there's, I mean, there's multiples, but then there's, you know, quality of earnings and, you know, how much of it is recurring and, and, um, uh, and, and all that.
And so part of that is diligence, and then part of that is valuation, right? Um, what does that look like on the ESOP side? Like, who, who's driving that? I mean, on the PE, PE side, it's clear. Um, who drives that when, uh, you know, when there is no PE buyer and it's the
Chuck Mazzanti: Yeah. Yeah, I'll say, and again, this [00:31:00] is like, uh, getting out of my lane a little bit, so I'll give you from my perspective. But, um, private equity, like they're... Most times they, they need to generate alpha, right? So you could do that by buying right and, and suppressing the value down so you have more runway to, to generate alpha that way.
Or you believe in the business growing a certain, certain metric or cutting out expense. But usually, rule of thumb, private equity's not gonna wanna willingly overpay. They're gonna wanna pay the least amount is the buyer's willing to sell it for. In the ESOP model, they can't overpay, but they don't, they, they can't underpay either.
They're, they're gonna pay what fair market value is. And again, that, depending on the industry, right? So if you have lawn care, that's gonna be different than heavy civil, that's gonna be different than electrical, and then [00:32:00] is it super heavy on data center projects in New York? In the most recent couple years, they're probably gonna throw cold water on that with the moratorium in, in New York, right?
So they're, they're gonna stress test because they don't want to do a ESOP transaction on something that isn't going to bear out over the long term. So they have to be very careful with that, and you don't wanna, like... You, you wanna make sure that the, the ESOP transaction's done on solid ground. You don't wanna do it, then have it be on solid ground, and then it folds up and it's a failure.
But there's valuation companies and, and attorneys and, and trustees that essentially they'll value the company on comps, and they have a matrix of, of how they go about doing that. Um, they would be better to talk to than me as far as like the, the nitty-gritty of how they get to that number.
Jason Jacobs: Well, okay. Well, bringing it back around to something that's more squarely in your lane. So from an insurance standpoint, you mentioned that [00:33:00] relationships are a big part of your job, um, uh, and that there's some sometimes factors outside of your control where you invest time in the relationship, but then, you know, they got bought by someone that has a different relationship, and then the, you know, the relationship becomes irrelevant.
Um, you know, how much do you diligence, uh, your clients when it comes to, you know, like do you want every client with a wallet or, um, or are you discerning? And if you're discerning, like what are the criteria you look for? And then same question when it comes to the rates. Um, you know, do the rates vary greatly based on what you find once you look under the hood, and what are the key levers that affect that?
Chuck Mazzanti: Yeah. I mean, for me, I, I want-- my ideal customer is someone that I don't expect them to love insurance. I mean, I buy insurance. I don't love insurance. It's, it's an intangible product, so it's hard to say, "Hey, Jason, guess what? I'm selling you the Ferrari of insurance products." So you'd be like, "That's great, Chuck.
So you want me to pay, you know, a million bucks, and the only way I get to [00:34:00] utilize it is if I have a bad day?" Like, I, I get no one's gonna be super excited about that. But I do want, whether it's the CFO, the owner, the risk manager, general counsel, oftentimes a combination of the multitude of those people, I want someone that understands insurance is important.
And ultimately, if you do have a bad day and you need to use it, you gotta have the right insurance in place. Otherwise, worst case, you could go out of business because it's gonna tap retained earnings and maybe beyond what you got. So what happens then? Or best case, it taps some retained earnings, and that was money that you had earmarked for something else, and now it's, it's gone because you had to pay for a million-dollar loss that wasn't covered by insurance or you didn't have enough.
And then, of course, you know, the, the iceberg thing, right? The tip of the iceberg and then everything that's under the waterline, right? So [00:35:00] depreciation on the equipment after there's a loss, right? The, the, the downtime of the equipment, the bad PR on a job, the, the per- your best guy or gal that got hurt.
And if you're a union contractor, I mean, the labor market's super tight in construction, right? So now you're calling the union hall, and everyone knows, like, the person coming out of the union hall probably isn't up to speed as much as that 15-year journeyman that already understands your company and culture.
So now you gotta call five people out of the union hall to replace one person. Well, the wages and the delta and the quality of work and the risk of onboarding someone new same day to do a project, like, those are all the indirect costs that happen. So I want people that understand insurance is important, and then they're open and willing to have me utilize my expertise to craft an insurance product that is going to [00:36:00] be best in class for them and actually gain a competitive advantage to the other contractors in the marketplace that are like, "I just want the cheapest thing.
I just-- bottom line, if you're a million bucks and the other guy's nine hundred grand, I don't care if the coverage is way less, I'm going with the cheapest," um, that's, that's probably not the right buyer. I, I do have ways to make sure I'm getting you the lowest price possible without giving up coverage.
Um, but yeah, I, I want someone that's active in, in their insurance program.
Jason Jacobs: Uh-huh. And, um, and how much of a rate is determined by the specific nuances and exposures of a, of, of a shop versus just like, you know, for, for this tier of client it's X, for this tier of client it's Y? Like, like h- uh, yeah, like how, how complicated is it under the hood to, you know, to get to the rate proposal?
Chuck Mazzanti: Yeah. Without, without putting the audience to sleep, I'll give you the CliffsNotes version, Jason. So there's, [00:37:00] there's standardized rates in certain things, right? So like work comp, depending if you're-- what state you're in, there's a lot of states that are covered by the NCCI that will have manual rates for a class code, right?
So commercial electrical versus paving versus steel erection. But then insurance carriers will have different paper they can write on to d- add debits or credits off that baseline. So from carrier to carrier, there will be some variance, but if you're with an agent that specializes in construction and they're decent size, they'll probably have ninety percent of the insurance carriers that you would ever wanna be seen.
So that, just the level of competition is gonna kinda smooth things out. Where it gets interesting and why I want people that are active in their insurance program and actually see value is the intangible thing that does [00:38:00] move the needle is I'm a matchmaker at the end of the day, Jason, right? So if, if I, if I wasn't married and I went to a buddy and said, "Hey, I'm in the market to, to find a girlfriend, find Mrs.
Right," and I know he's got a picture of me when I was hungover in college and a picture of me when I stood up at his wedding, same Chuck, wildly different way to show me, right? I want him showing the, the best picture of me, not the hungover picture of me. Well, insurance, when I'm selling a risk, I'm talking about what's their culture, what's their safety, what are they doing when they had a loss, why is that loss not gonna happen again?
How are they looking at, you know, um, not only lagging indicators, but leading indicators, lo- logging near misses? All these things to empower an underwriter to say, "You know what? I'm willing to give thirty percent credit on that. I get [00:39:00] they've had some bad losses, but Chuck and this contractor explained why it's never gonna happen again.
Maybe they, they had a fire from sweating in a pipe. Well, now they use torchless crimping so that, you know, the probability of that fire happening again, at least from sweating in a pipe, is gone now, and I could prove on all the trucks that they have torchless equipment." So it's those types of things, and it's, it's an undertaking, right, Jason?
Because you gotta either have your risk manager or the CFO or the owner sit down and methodically go through what happened with this claim Okay, what are you doing differently? And all these questions, right? You got to make yourself or your team accessible to someone like me to go through these questions, but that's where you get outsized results.
Because if I have most of the markets, I could find the bottom by creating good competition. But the only way to really get to the true bottom is telling the best story and highlighting and giving that [00:40:00] best picture of that contractor to the marketplace and getting them really excited about writing it, so they sharpen up their pencil and, and provide the best terms.
And then from there, we, you know, there's a lot of different things we could do as far as helping them take on more risk, but de-risking and, and going into, you know, whether it's a group captive, single parent captive, taking on a large deductible, a retrospective, uh, rating program where it's like, okay, if you're not having losses or you're having low losses relative to what you pay, well, your good premium is subsidizing your competitor you're bidding against that doesn't care about safety and is having claims.
So how do you unplug yourself from that? Well, different forms of self-insurance, which then you get credits, um, and then all of a sudden now you're eking out, you know, another half a point in margin because you're saving half a million or a million dollars on your insurance spend while your competitor isn't, [00:41:00] and now you could get, you know, more competitive on your bidding and so forth
Jason Jacobs: And, um, what is the relationship between insurance and, uh, surety or, or bonding capacity? How, uh, you know, how, how much overlap is there? How much collaboration is there? And just, you know, how-- where do they sit relative to each other?
Chuck Mazzanti: Yeah, I would say-- I mean, they, they could, they can and are operated independently. So like the surety underwriter at Travelers, I could have a contractor with Travelers in their auto GL work comp, all those lines. I could also have them with Travelers on the surety. The two underwriters are wildly different.
So you'll have some contractors that have their insurance placed with an agency and an agent, and their surety's with a totally different agency, with a different agent, different underwriter, maybe same carrier, maybe different carriers. That [00:42:00] happens all the time. Um, I think one of the benefits of having it with the same agency, if it's a good shop, is you can have mutual collaboration.
Um, so I-- before this call, we talked about how I had Alan Starks on, on my, you know, the Construction ESOP Collective podcast to talk about the implications of surety and, and going ESOP, right? So when I have a contractor that Alan does the surety and I do what's called the property and casualty, so auto, GL, work comp, so forth, oftentimes on bigger contractors, they wanna be able to see financials as well.
Well, you absolutely need to have financials on the surety program and having a deeper understanding of the mechanics of what's going on on the balance sheet and the WIP and their backlog and all these things. Alan knows it intimately, so he could help me understand it from his seat, [00:43:00] and I could sell that risk better to my side of the house and vice versa.
I could help Alan understand why it's such a good risk, why they're such a safe company, all the things that they're doing. And ultimately, one of the biggest KPIs for a surety is gonna be the financials. But what could disrupt the apple cart on a financial-- from a financial perspective? Well, if they're having a bunch of claims, they're not, you know, a safe company, so on and so forth, that will absolutely impact the bottom line.
So there is a symbiotic relationship that can work in concert when done correctly for a competitive advantage, but it's, it's not necessary, and there are a lot of contractors that have it, you know, bifurcated.
Jason Jacobs: Mm-hmm. And, um, and given the fragmented nature of, uh, the industry as well as just all the, I, I mean, I don't know if this is an inside term or just an outside term that insiders groan at, but the silver tsunami, right? All the, um, you know, all the [00:44:00] owners and, and seniors that are, that are retiring at a rapid clip in the coming years.
H- how much of that is affecting y- your industry, and what are you guys doing about it?
Chuck Mazzanti: Yeah, so if you're talking about our industry as far as like our employee owners, um Yeah, there's not a lot of people that, that grow up and say, "You know what I want to be, Jason, when I grow up? I want to be an insurance agent."
it's it's just-- it's not, it's not the, the sexy industry like maybe, you know, stockbrokers, real estate investing.
I mean, even, even construction, right? Like I, I know when I was a kid, even to this day, I drive by some cool heavy equipment, and you're kind of drawn to it, right? Insurance doesn't necessarily have that allure, especially for people that aren't a part of it. They just think, "Oh, I hate insurance. It's boring.
It's only family members that pull other family members into the industry." I, I wholeheartedly disagree with that just [00:45:00] because I get to live vicariously through all my customers and prospective customers, and I really have to understand intimately how they operate their business, right? And so every day is different for me, right?
From understanding what a heavy civil contractor's going through and how they're operating versus a commercial GC operating in downtown Chicago. So it's, it's trying to tell prospective new hires like, "Hey, do you like consulting or are you enamored by the Deloittes or the McKinseys of the world?" Like, it's kind of how we operate just at a, a way more personal level and in the middle market as opposed to the Fortune 500.
Um, so we do a lot of that. The, the employee owner model is big for us and, and having internship programs for kids coming out of college and getting them to actually come into our building and see like, maybe you think insurance is boring, but we're a group of fun people. And actually our, our average [00:46:00] age, Jason, is below the median for the industry.
I want to say our average age at Christensen Group is like maybe 42 or, or younger. I mean, Charlie Christensen's in his late 30s. He's our CEO. Samantha Olinger's, you know, our COO, is, is in her 30s. Like our, our leadership is definitely on the younger side, which helps from, uh, attracting and retaining the, the younger side of it.
But similar to construction, brain drain is a real thing, and getting the older folks that have decades of experience and knowledge and real-world experience, not textbook, is, is really important for our organization to keep them around because you can't learn everything out of a book. You got to learn from someone else's lived experience.
And so I'm grateful at, at our shop we have, we have a lot of people that are out of the ESOP. We force diversification at [00:47:00] 61. We have people in their 70s that are still around in mentor roles, helping out the younger generation, going out on meetings, bringing their relationships with, with underwriters that are 30 years long, uh, to the table.
So we have a good mixture.
Jason Jacobs: And what are you seeing from your clients in terms of how much they're adopting AI and other emerging technologies, and what kind of impact they're seeing in their business? And same question, uh, for you and, uh, at, and Christensen
Chuck Mazzanti: Yeah, I mean, it's, it's the buzzword, right? Whether it's one of the contractor associations I'm a part of or the ESOP associations I'm a part of, if there's like a conference or a mini conference, there's always a track on AI and I'll try to go to it. I'm, I'm kind of a, a geek when it comes to AI, so I, I listen to a couple different podcasts that are around AI.
I'm pretty plugged in. I'm interested by it. Um, [00:48:00] it runs the spectrum, Jason. I would say the general-- the, the larger general contractors seem to have more of a natural affinity to it, and they're more inclined to bring on a chief techno- you know, CTO and have them integrate, you know, AI processes, whether it's the ERP or, or whatever it is.
So I'd say they're-- in my experience they've been quicker on the uptake for AI, but they're still figuring it out. You know, even that executive team's like, "I don't know that much, but I, I believe in this brainiac that we brought on that knows a ton of it and we think it's gonna drive process improvement and better margins and capture some stuff that maybe would leak out."
Um, but it's... I mean it goes from ex- experts in it to, yeah, I mean I think we have a co-pilot subscription, so yeah, we're, we're AI forward and everything in between.
Jason Jacobs: And what about you [00:49:00] guys?
Chuck Mazzanti: We're, we're still trying to figure it out. I mean, our industry, you have a lot of, um, personally identifiable information, so we have to be very careful how we sandbox our AI tools and make sure it's SOC 2 compliant and, and all these things, because the, the last thing we need is having someone's personal information being compromised by an AI product.
So we, we have a couple different tools that have been, you know, vetted by our CTO and are SOC 2 compliant, and we're a part of something called Assurex Global, which is a, a peer group of some of the biggest privately held insurance agencies in the country and world for that matter. So we lean on them as well to find out what our, our peer members are doing in different markets and countries and, and what they recommend.
So, um, there's, there's some insurance specific [00:50:00] tools that help benchmark policies to other quotes and exclusions and policy language just to kinda standardize things. There's, um, some other process improvement things integrated into what I would say is our ERP, but it's-- we're slow to do the uptake just 'cause we-- it has to be sandboxed on our, our stuff.
We can't have anything shared outside.
Jason Jacobs: Yeah. I mean, one of the things that it seems like construction is busy thinking about is, is all the judgment that's trapped in people's heads. Like, how do you, you know, how do you make it institutional judgment and not individual judgment so that if that judgment walks out the door, the institution doesn't lose it?
And how do you, you know, if you have five estimators and one's been doing it 30 years and, you know, four others have been doing it five years or less, like, how do you, you know, how do you help everyone to work like the senior, right? Um, uh, and, uh, but I, but I, I mean, it sounds from what you've been saying that, um, that there's some of those same questions in your world too.
Chuck Mazzanti: 100%. I mean, it's-- [00:51:00] AI is great. It knows a lot about everything, and there's smaller models that are hyper trained in certain niches, right? Whether it's surgery or oncology or whatever it is. So as you peel the onion back, there's specialized models for certain industries that are better than if you went to Claude or, you know, ChatGPT or Gemini, whatever.
But even with those, they're not at the point where they're ahead of the person that's been in that industry, that's at the top of their game in that industry for thirty years. They're not there yet. And so it's the brain drain, right? It's insurance is dealing with it 'cause there's more older folks than there is younger folks coming in.
So there's a net, um, negative as far as exodus going out versus new blood coming in, so to speak. Construction has it too. And so how do you, how do you have the more experienced folks part with [00:52:00] their knowledge to maybe have AI help bring other people up to speed? Is it, you know, interviewing them on, on camera and then augmenting that with LLMs?
I know there's, I don't know if it's Minstrel. There, there's a company, an AI forward company that all they do is they're looking for people to... Let's say it's an engineer. If he or she has notes on the process, does video interviews with themselves and like kinda extracts their brain onto paper, this company will pay tens of millions of dollars for it, and they're training their models on it.
So I think people are figuring it out. But then there's like the-- people are a little bit weary and I think understandably so. Like, all right, I, I-- my whole life I put into this, and now I'm gonna sell it to some AI company that may or may not have good intentions. Like that, that feels kinda weird too. So it's the Wild West right now, right?
[00:53:00] Protecting information, making people feel like they're not just being marginalized by some technology, but it's gonna be used for the betterment of the company. And then what, what AI products are trustworthy, you know, and how do you sandbox them so your competitor doesn't get it? And how do you get a sixty-five-year-old that may be not super tech forward to be like, "Hey, we're gonna start doing interviews with you, Jason, and we're gonna essentially extract your brain before you retire in nine months."
Uh, you may not be open if you know that's, that's the goal.
Jason Jacobs: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I certainly don't know what the answer is and, and agree with you that it feels like the, the Wild West. I mean, it, it seems inevitable that, uh, those answers will sort themselves out, and I am, uh, um, I think an optimist for the level of change that it can bring about and also p- positive just in terms of making people's effort go further, helping, uh, you know, fill in [00:54:00] the gaps to do things that people didn't wanna do anyways about their jobs so that they can focus on the stuff that only they can do, right?
Um, um, but I think with any, with any transition comes like turbulence and, uh, and not, you know, not every role or function or, or person or family is gonna, is gonna come out on the, on the positive end of that, you know. But the other, the other side is that a bunch of new skill sets and industries and jobs, uh, you know, will be created, right?
Um, and it's just the nature of the world, like the only constant is change. So I don't fear it. I lean into it. But, um, I mean, as an entrepreneur, it's easier for me to say because that's what entrepreneurs do. If, if you've been doing the same job for a long time, you know, if you're like a mainframe programmer and the, you know, and the world is going, uh, um, you know, towards, uh, you know, towards like PCs and the internet, right?
Then, you know, maybe, maybe you feel differently and, and, and understandably so.
Chuck Mazzanti: Yeah. I, [00:55:00] I think there's just a lot of trepidation, right? And then you hear, you hear these stories of these companies that, you know, they get on a Friday afternoon Zoom call, all company meeting and lay off 20% of their workforce. And then the next week on an earnings call, they're touting like, "Hey, margins are better 'cause, you know, we, we cut these people."
It's like, well, no wonder people are apprehensive about AI when there's those types of stories and companies that are just literally looking at the bottom line, don't have any empathy whatsoever. So I think it's important, whether it's ESOP companies, privately held, if there's private equity companies that wanna do a, a PR campaign and, and get the general viewership to, you know, look at them better, I think it's important to explain to people, for us to maintain our competitive spot in whatever industry it is, I don't care, it's an arms race.
And if we [00:56:00] don't adopt this and perform better, we are going to get out-competed, and if we get out-competed, we will lose our relevancy. If we lose our relevancy, we could up until be out of business. If we're out of business, you don't have a job. So we're gonna use this new tool to be better competitors, but it's not to cut heads.
It's what you said, to empower you to do what you love to do and, and aug- and automate some of the, the minutiae, the repetitive tasks that you could do, but it's just kinda mind-numbing, that you don't need to do. So let's, what's the 80/20 of where your passion is, and let's offload some of the stuff that's just monotonous so you can do more of what you love.
We get more efficiency gains. We're more competitive, and we could actually hire more. And I, I think companies need to, need to underpin like, and, and give confidence in their employees by, "Hey, we're gonna empower you to do this, and this is what [00:57:00] we're gonna do." But also, I think it's in the company's right to say, "Hey, if..."
It's like a contractor, right? It used to be a shovel to dig a ditch. Then it was an excavator. If the guy with the shovel said, "I don't believe in the excavator," he was probably shown the door. So like, I, I think to a certain extent, all of us need to say, "Hey, here's a new tool. We need to learn how to use it."
And the people that are empowered by it probably have way better job security, but if you stick your head in the sand, yeah, you, you may be shown the door
Jason Jacobs: Um, well, uh, I mean, this has been such a wide-ranging discussion. Maybe, maybe one, uh, question just to kinda, um, close the loop here and wrap up. I'll, uh... It's not directly, uh, aligned with your core focus, but I'll put you on the spot anyways. Um, if you look out 10 years in construction, you know, put on your futurist hat for a minute, um, what do you think will be the same about the industry, and what do you think will be different?
And, [00:58:00] um, and to the extent it's different, how will it be different?
Chuck Mazzanti: Yeah. 10 years out, I, I think what will be the same is you're, you're still, you're still gonna have men and women in the field doing the job. There may be other technologies that are, are taking on some of the riskier aspects, right? I mean, I see it with demo contractors. They have, you know, autonomous things that are done by remote control versus the guy on the jack.
So I think-- But ultimately, you're still gonna have men and women in the field operating whatever equipment to get the job done. I think that's still gonna be the case 10 years from now. Uh, what will be different is maybe how they get the work done. I think technology in, in a decade from now will... I mean, you already have, uh, I forgot the name of the robotics company, but they augment, um, excavators and, and they put on equipment where it could dig autonomously [00:59:00] without the operator.
Now, I think the unions, like you're, you're in Boston, right, Jason?
Jason Jacobs: I am
Chuck Mazzanti: Yeah, so Boston, big union city. Chicago, big union city. I don't see the union cities being like, "Oh yeah, we're gonna get rid of, you know, a local whatever to have these autonomous diggers." But if they're fully at the labor force and they're still not getting the, the work done and they say, "Hey, everybody's-- Like, we have an open job for anyone that's trained to come in, but they're not coming in.
Can we operate a couple of these above and beyond?" I think that will start to become the norm, um, and it's, it's gonna run the gamut in every industry. You have drones that are doing window cleaning now. You'll have autonomous excavators. You'll have
Jason Jacobs: So are the, are, are the autonomous vehicles gonna have to pay, uh, union dues?
Chuck Mazzanti: That's, that's what's gonna be, that- that's what's gonna be interesting or even my industry, [01:00:00] right? Like you look at, all right, if, if we start having autonomous vehicles and maybe not like the heavy construction equipment driving around, but like they have a fleet of F-150s and service vehicles and stuff, in 10 years, those may be autonomous.
Well, if what they're saying is true, that autonomous driving vehicles are safer, claims are gonna go down. That's great. But in the industry, if claims go down, what should happen and what better happen, premiums will go down. So like I'm happy about it, but maybe some of my publicly traded competitors, that's less revenue in their pockets.
So how do they... Do they just take it on the chin? Like what does that look like? There's a lot of, a lot of things that are gonna be interesting a decade out
Jason Jacobs: Yeah. Well, it's a, I mean, it's a time of g- of great uncertainty and change, and I think with that comes, uh, you know, anxiety, but also comes opportunity. Um, and, uh, yeah. And I think each of us chooses every day whether we get [01:01:00] up, uh, and play defense or offense. And personally, I'm trying to, you know, to live my life in a way where I'm, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm embracing the future all the time and, and, uh, you know, and I have one speed and it's go, right?
But, um, uh, but that's, I mean, that's a personal choice that each of us has to, has to try to make and, and figure it out. But I, I don't know. In my experience it feels like, um, uh, you know, you can't stop progress and, and you can, you can, uh, you know, you can try to put up barriers and blockades and headwinds and whatever, but ultimately, like, uh, you know, the same way, uh, you know, progress is the ocean.
Like, you know, like man is not gonna beat the ocean, you know? Um, and, and I th- I think in the, in the end, uh, you know, as a species, like progress will win
Chuck Mazzanti: Yeah, I-- you know what? Uh, it's-- I could get hit by a bus tomorrow, so why am I gonna sit here and be analysis paralysis or worried about all the what-ifs today? I need to live my life today 'cause I'm not [01:02:00] guaranteed tomorrow. Um, and ultimately, I'm gonna, I'm gonna choose to look at the good that all these different changes could, could present, and I'm gonna learn as much as I can to empower myself.
And God forbid, if it goes south, I'm not gonna stop that, so I might as well enjoy life, you know, every day and, and do what I can to, to just have a growth mindset
Jason Jacobs: Well, Chuck, I mean, that's a great point to, to wrap on. Is there anything that I didn't ask that you wish I did or, or any other parting words for listeners?
Chuck Mazzanti: No, I just, you know, I, I've enjoyed getting to know you. Um, now it's two hours, so I, I would say I have a way better understanding of Jason than I, than I did two hours ago, and I'm just excited. I'm grateful I met you. Um, I really like what you're doing. It... You're getting a lot of really good people on your show.
I'm excited about the other people you're gonna have on, and you're just a genuine dude trying to, trying to learn and, and make a difference in the industry, and I'm, I'm [01:03:00] grateful to be connected to you
Jason Jacobs: Thanks. Well, I feel the same. Yeah. Yeah, and I'll feel... I'm having a blast. I'll feel better when I have a business model, but, um, uh, but unfortunately, you know, going into a space like this that's non-intuitive where you have to take your licks and pay your dues, like jumping to business model is cart before the horse, so I just gotta kinda hold my nose and grind and, and, you know, hope something good comes out the other side.
Chuck Mazzanti: Yeah, I'm, I'm excited for what, what's gonna come out. I, I could, I guarantee you something good will, so
Jason Jacobs: Well, thanks Chuck. Thanks again for coming on. Uh, and again, yeah, glad to be connected and looking forward to staying in touch. Best of luck to you and, uh, um, and thanks for all the work that you're doing, um, to push the industry forward too, especially on the ESOP side
Chuck Mazzanti: Yeah. Yeah, you're welcome. Thanks again, Jason
Jason Jacobs: That's it for this episode of BuiltForward. I hope you enjoyed it. If you found it useful, share it with someone building in the industry and follow the show so you don't miss what's next. Thanks for listening, and see you next [01:04:00] week