Gregg Schoppman is a Partner at FMI, where he leads the firm’s Operations practice and works with contractors across the country to improve productivity, profitability, and the way their businesses operate. In this episode, we talk about what Gregg has learned from decades of working inside construction companies: why process improvement is so difficult, where contractors tend to get stuck, and how the best organizations turn the knowledge and judgment of their people into repeatable systems. We also dig into the role technology and AI can play in that process, the danger of automating broken workflows, how contractors should think about standardization versus individual judgment, and what actually separates companies that continuously improve from those that struggle to change. For anyone thinking about how to build a better-run construction company - and where technology fits into that equation - Gregg brings a deeply practical perspective shaped by years in the field and hundreds of contractor engagements.
Gregg Schoppman is a Partner at FMI and leads the firm’s Operations practice, working with contractors to improve productivity, profitability, and operational performance.
In this episode, we dig into how contractors actually improve their businesses, why process change is so difficult, how knowledge and judgment get transferred across organizations, and where technology and AI fit.
In this episode:
00:00 — Introduction
03:42 — Gregg’s path to FMI
05:18 — What FMI’s operations practice does
08:16 — Why contractors call FMI
10:38 — The problem you see vs. the real problem
13:42 — How Gregg diagnoses operational problems
15:34 — Why technology doesn’t fix broken processes
17:24 — Best practices vs. a contractor’s unique DNA
21:29 — Getting buy-in from the field
26:06 — Learning by observing how the work actually gets done
30:15 — Fix the symptom or look at the whole business?
34:14 — Why AI is coming up more with contractors
36:52 — How mid-sized contractors should approach AI
40:32 — Will AI fundamentally change construction?
43:09 — How AI is changing FMI
45:32 — What construction could look like in 10 years
Jason Jacobs: [00:00:00] Welcome to BuiltForward, the podcast exploring where construction is heading over the next decade and how AI and other emerging technologies will and won't transform the industry. I'm Jason Jacobs, a longtime startup founder, investor, and the host. Let's get into it
Today's guest is Gregg Schoppman, a partner at FMI Corporation and the leader of its operations consulting practice. FMI is one of the leading consulting and investment banking firms focused exclusively on the built environment, giving Gregg a particularly interesting vantage point into how contractors operate across the industry.
Gregg has spent years working directly with general and trade contractors on productivity, project management, operations improvement, and organizational transformation. Before joining FMI, Gregg was a senior project manager for a general [00:01:00] contractor, so he brings both an operator's and a consultant's perspective to how construction companies actually work.
I've been spending a lot of time lately thinking about AI and technology, but increasingly, I've come to believe that the technology itself may be the easy part. The harder questions are around workflows, processes, people, and figuring out what actually needs to change inside a contractor to produce better outcomes.
That's exactly what I wanted to dig into with Gregg. In this episode, we talk about what separates great contractors operationally, where contractors tend to struggle as they grow, why seemingly simple process changes can be so hard to make stick, and how Gregg thinks about productivity, accountability, and continuous improvement.
And of course, we get into AI, where it might generally change-- genuinely change how contractors operate and where the industry's challenges have a lot less to do with technology and more to do with people. At any rate, great discussion, and I hope you enjoy it. Gregg, welcome to the show.
[00:02:00] Okay, Gregg Schoppman, welcome to the show
Gregg Schoppman: Thank you. Thank you for having me
Jason Jacobs: I'm thrilled for, for you to be here. Uh, as I told you, um, just before we started recording, you know, I've been for the last several months doing a deep dive into the future of commercial construction, specifically looking at these, um, mid-sized contractors. Um, you know, call it 10 to 75 million, and I've covered a lot of ground, but I'm still so early.
Um, but in my travels, uh, I really can't think of a firm that I've found that's better placed than FMI Corporation in terms of your history, in terms of the breadth of your offerings, um, uh, and in terms of the, um, uh, you know, the skill sets, the data, and the relationships that you guys have around the table.
So, um, I'm gearing up to just have a fascinating
discussion and learn a ton
Gregg Schoppman: Well, we are excited, uh, you know, not only as a partner with FMI, but, you know, really where the industry is poised right now. And I mean, you coming from that tech side of, of the universe, uh, you know, it's [00:03:00] a little bit like the, uh, you know, Reese's Peanut Butter Cup here. You know, you're chocolate and we're peanut butter or vice versa.
But, um, and I have a couple clients that would love, they love when I use that, uh, analogy. But the, the point of this, you know, you see an industry like construction, which I think is just ripe for capitalizing on so many of the things that are out there. I mean, I, I guess we get $100 for every time we say AI in this podcast, and I'm being very sarcastic.
But suffice to say, it's everything technological, technological is kinda dominating so many of my operational conversations, my strategy conversations, so this is exciting
Jason Jacobs: Uh, well, before we jump too far down the FMI path, how did you find your way into working in the trades?
Gregg Schoppman: Well, uh, I am an engineer by degree. Uh, and thankfully they don't let me engineer anything. I, I went to Florida, was a civil engineer. Um, went directly from school [00:04:00] to a road builder in Central Florida, uh, doing DOT work, and then migrated from there to the vertical building side, and, uh, absolutely loved building stuff.
I, I don't wanna use the, I'd say, somewhat trite story of, "Boy, I loved building with Legos", but I have a five-year-old, you can see in the picture behind me, and she loves Legos, so it kinda warms my heart. Um, that being said, it, it's just was so much more fun to see the work get put in place, whether it's moving dirt or, you know, uh, erecting panels or buildings.
I came from that industry over to FMI, and, uh, talk about a complement of my engineering, construction background, coupled with what FMI does, which is for 75 years just working in the construction industry. So kind of a marriage made in heaven. And, uh, you know, it, it... for me, uh, I get to live vicariously through so many of my clients.
In fact, my wife asked me to go [00:05:00] do career day at my daughter's school, and the complicated part is explaining to a bunch of kindergartners what a business consultant does. Um, and I'm, I'm not even sure I'm looking forward to being, you know, heckled by kindergartners, but I think I'm just gonna say I'm in the construction business because that's a lot cooler and a heck of a lot more fun sounding
Jason Jacobs: Uh, and, and within FMI, just kind of frame up for us, um, uh, your practice, where that sits, um, uh, relative to the rest of the organization, and also just in terms of profile, um, what types of customers y-you tend to serve?
Gregg Schoppman: Sure. So obviously FMI, we have the two distinctive houses, one of which is the consultative, which I represent. We have the investment banking side, which deals with, uh, mergers and acquisitions, uh, you know, anything related to, uh, ESOPs, ownership transfer. Um, however, I'm on the consulting side, [00:06:00] and within that group, uh, I specialize in the arena of operations.
So to be very clear, this is, you know, either creating or refining all things related to processes and tools where obviously technology is, you know, perfectly suited, but also kind of helping organizations optimize their performance, whether it be labor, equipment, trade contractors, um, you know, alike. I would say a typical, you know, FMI client is...
In some cases, people think, "Well, you must help a lot of, you know, challenged businesses." And the answer is, actually, it's probably the opposite. It's organizations that are really good that want to... I don't want to be trite either, but they want to go from that good to great. And how do they do that when you have so many people, so many tools, and so many legs of the business that are, you know, uh, kind of, [00:07:00] uh, you know, maybe, you know, not working in sync with one another?
Um, as far as a, a typical profile per se, I'll say that really anybody in the built environment probably fits us. Um, you have your typical vertical building construction managers to, you know, drywallers, uh, you know, civil contractors, DOT contractors, you name it, mechanical, electrical. I think what you also find out is while an electrical is different than a, uh, commercial general contractor that maybe self-performs nothing, they use trade contractors, the fact is, this is an industry that's predicated on, um, a lot of labor, a lot of people moving in a lot of different directions, and the processes become somewhat the same.
They may not be apples to apples, but at least they're apples and oranges [00:08:00] in the same, you know, kind of fruit basket, so. Um, and you start to look across the aisle and you go, "Wow, they're a lot more like us than we thought. Um, they have a lot of the same problems." You know, it just may not manifest itself the way typical...
uh, way people typically think it would
Jason Jacobs: Does there tend to be a typical stage of firm or a business trigger, um, that causes them to call FMI?
Gregg Schoppman: I, I don't know if there's a typical trigger. I think, uh, right now what we're seeing are, are probably two triggers, um, if anything that, um, you know, one, people are concerned about, you know, the state of the economy. Uh, you know, and that kind of goes in both directions. You'll see some firms that go, "We're concerned because we see a whole lot of opportunity, and we don't know what to capitalize on.
Meanwhile, we still wanna make money, so we don't want to just be a throughput." You know, you, you do $100 million in construction, you're not gonna [00:09:00] make $100 million profit. We wish that worked that way. But we'll see companies growing, but their margins are going down, which is not the way you want this thing to work.
Um, on the other hand, we have clients that maybe are trying to figure out, you know, "Hey, we have had a pretty good year. We wanna keep that thing going and not kind of fall off the schneid, so to speak. How do we keep momentum and not get complacent?" So I, I would say that, you know, there's not a specific trigger.
I think great leaders typically are constantly looking inward and f- trying to figure out, what do we need to do differently? What do we need to be best of class? In fact, I was on the phone, uh, just prior to hopping on here, uh, with a client and, you know, their biggest thing is they said, "We've had a, an amazing run."
Uh, you know, and we were talking about the help that we gave them years ago, and they said, "We've applied all those things, and we're [00:10:00] yielding the benefits. We don't wanna fall backwards." So it, it's a little bit of a kind of that tenuous slope that we don't wanna breathe our own air and think that we're doing great, but how do we need to keep up?
Especially as people bring on new folks, you know, how do they make sure that those new folks are being indoctrinated the right way? They're utilizing the right tools and processes. And it says easy, you know, it sounds easy to just, oh, we'll just onboard them, but it's not always that way. We need to make sure we're constantly, constantly sharpening the knife edge.
Jason Jacobs: Uh, so when the owner, uh, you know, I presume it's the owner, but who, you know, whoever picks up the phone and calls you to, um, to engage FMI, I, I would assume that the first thing is they explain in their own words the state of the business and, um, why they're calling. Once you get in there, how often does what they think is going on match what you find is actually going on?
Gregg Schoppman: So I, I think, you know, when I, I hear a client [00:11:00] articulate the, uh, why they're calling me, in some cases it's the equivalent of them going to the doctor and saying, "Well, my, my arm hurts.
Um, I... You know, did I break my arm?" And, and you may find out it's some deeper, deeper thing. Um, probably not the best analogy, but you know, they may be losing money, and where do they naturally kind of gravitate? They go, "Well, it must be the field's fault," because they're the people that touch the project the most, right?
And they go, "We have a field problem." And I kind of gently push back and say, "You know, you have an organizational problem. You know, you probably have something else further upstream. For instance, let's talk about how you, how you start jobs. You know, are you good at getting that information from business development or the sales team and, and getting it to the people that need the information the most?
Or do you do the old-fashioned, you know, you put a three-ring binder together, stuff it with a bunch of stuff, and lob [00:12:00] it over the wall like a hand grenade and say, 'Hey, you know, good luck. Uh, I hope this project goes well.'" And it, it... That may be being a little too cavalier, but I think are we setting people up to be successful?
My, my point is they just know they're losing money or they're losing people. They're losing it to the competition. Well, we're not paying people well enough. That's why they're leaving. Well, most people leave organizations because of their relationship with their supervisor, um, and it gets manifested once again in, "Hey, I'm going to make a, a buck more down the street with the competition."
My point is, I think people understand, uh, and they're also telling a total stranger, you know, what they think the problem... I mean, are you gonna call up and go, "Hey, I, I think I'm the problem. I'm eating too much fast food and, you know, that's why my stomach aches," you know? Or are you gonna go, "Hey, my stomach aches.
I'll let you figure out what the root cause of that [00:13:00] is." Um, a lot of the problems that we do see are interpersonal cultural things, and you can't fast-track fixing your culture. Fixing your people doesn't happen overnight. Um, and unfortunately, a lot of organizations are not necessarily equipped to deal with the fixing of the people, uh, very easily.
Um, they'd love it to be a very, you know, brick and mortar, steel, dirt, you know, a mechanical solution versus, uh, "Wow, we've gotta implement a program that shows appreciation for our associates or communicate better. Oh, man, let's go back to fixing with a hard solution. You know, let's put a, you know, a fastener on it, and that'll make everything better."
It, it doesn't work that way.
Jason Jacobs: So when you come into a client cold, um, uh, is it a long, rigorous process before you have enough data to form a real [00:14:00] opinion, or, or is it like muscle memory? Like there's kind of two or three key things that you know just where to look, and from there, with 80% certainty, you kind of at least get a, get a baseline?
Gregg Schoppman: I, I would say it's probably more than, than like say two questions, but that's the, the benefit of what we do is, you know, we see this, like you said, it's repetition. You know, you can start to notice some very clear indicators. Um, and, and that's the benefit of only working in the industry like we do. I mean, sure, mechanicals, electricals, plumbers, painters, drywallers, civils, you know, yeah, they're all different types of businesses, but you see some of these same things over and over again, coupled with the data.
So we're, uh, as we were talking about earlier, you know, big on the data side. You know, the, the, the storehouse of information that we sit on allows us to not only go, "Look, you're doing this. This is the end result. There's a correlation here [00:15:00] or maybe even causation of why this is happening." You know, sure, anecdotally, uh, I, I can tell you a lot of, you know, really interesting stories on why there are failures.
At the end of the day, uh, there are a lot of clients and a lot of industries that go, "So if I do this, I'm gonna see this return. Is that what you're telling me?" And I can show that correlation That being said, um, you know, it is about asking the right questions. And, uh, o- one of the funny examples I'll, I'll give you is we, we, we hear clients all the time, you know, that are talking about new technologies, whether it be AI, whether it be, you know, just a project management software solution or ERP system, you know, Procore, Vista, Autodesk, you know.
I mean, they're all great softwares and tools, but the opportune word there is tools. But they'll go, "We have a problem of having all our [00:16:00] project managers and superintendents and foremen using, um, you know, a s- one singular system to capture all of the R5s and change orders and cost reports and daily reports and blah, blah, blah."
And they'll go, "Well, we'll fix it. We'll go out and buy Procore or Vista." And I go, "Okay, but that's like me going and just buying a Peloton bike and expecting the weight to fall off my body." And the good news is you can only see me from the chest up, and I'm a... I'm, I'm fairly, uh, uh, we'll say portly. Uh, the...
All jokes aside, though, you know, their... Peloton is a great tool. It's a great product, but it's not gonna necessarily cause you to lose weight. You've gotta deal with that root cause. What's preventing any of these things from not happening, you know? And I'm not gonna bore you with some of those, but I think we try to quickly latch on to that, that mechanical solution [00:17:00] versus, "Hey, you got a cultural problem here.
You know, people are... You know, don't feel appreciated, or they don't get the information they need, and, uh, client satisfaction is going down, and heck, employee satisfaction." And you start to build that story. Um, it's not a w- insert here, and you'll f- get the fix there. So I, I don't know, hopefully, that does a pretty good job of explaining how we get to that, uh, you know, say, root cause analysis
Jason Jacobs: A- and I would assume, you know, g- given your history and just the breadth of clients and types of engagements and pattern recognition and such, that you, you know, start building a worldview for how things should be done. I, I guess one question that comes to mind is just from what I can gather, and, and, um, every shop runs so different, um, so how do you balance the, um, kind of the universal truths of what's good and, and what's right with, with respecting the, um, you know, bespoke and custom nature of, of, like, all the history [00:18:00] and DNA that's unique to each,
um, firm?
Gregg Schoppman: Yeah. And, and that's a, to me, you know, uh, u- using my, you know, kinda healthcare or fitness analogy again, I mean, I can go to the doctor and he says, "Hey, you need to exercise, Gregg." Um, and I go, "Okay." Um, and if his playbook is saying to me, "Gregg, you need to learn how to run a marathon," uh, I'll go, "You're crazy.
I'm leaving and never coming back." Um, now, it... to me it's that bespoke solution. Sure, I know I need to exercise, uh, but what does that look like for my body type, for my age, um, for my ability, and how do we get to that? So to answer your question, yes. Uh, to me, the answer is we need a playbook. Um, now, does that mean, uh, and I'm just gonna use a, a couple big names, because I think they're somewhat household, but, you know, uh, a Skanska, um, a Turner, a [00:19:00] Whiting-Turner.
I mean, there's a whole bunch of, you know, big, big companies out there. In fact, just those three names alone, Turner, Whiting-Turner, and Skanska, yeah, I mean, did they invent, you know, project planning and project scorekeeping and... You know, the answer is no. Um, what they did do was take the beginning, middle, and end of a project and say, "We're gonna apply our version of that."
So what we are able to do is, "Hey, this is what great looks like for a construction organization. But part of this is you need to put your fingerprint all over this. Your DNA needs to be, you know, on this solution. And when we're doing this kind of very iterative implementation, after we figure out why we're not performing as well as we'd like, the next piece of it is, well, all right, let's get to that solution.
But this is not Gregg coming back to my home office in Tampa and [00:20:00] feverishly writing a book and then emailing it back to the client saying, "We good?" It's us doing this iteratively and getting to whatever that solution should look like. And to me, that is a powerful step that I think, once again, it's not the easy button that we press and spit out a book and we're all gonna use it, because the knee-jerk reaction is that PM or super or foreman is gonna go, "Well, this is great for a company like Turner or Skanska, but it ain't gonna be working for us.
We're a small or mid-sized drywaller in, you know, central Arkansas," um, or, uh, whatever customized piece. So part of that bespoke solution has to get, uh, you know, kinda past the, the, you know, the client perspective, and we get them to work with us. So you're saying you don't do this transition, [00:21:00] uh, from estimating to project management because your estimator- Those are PMs.
You know, well, of course they're not gonna have a meeting with themselves, so let's figure out how to do this in a way that makes for the best flow of information to the field, but we're not gonna have an extra step, and it's n- just blindly making an assumption, uh, that because other companies are doing it, it's gonna work here.
And that's what we want to avoid
Jason Jacobs: Uh, from, from the research that I've been doing, it seems like there's a tension between, um, what gets the owners excited and what gets the field, um, excited. So I guess I have a couple questions in that regard. One is, how does that translate in terms of, um, bringing a consultant to begin with? And then once you're in, how do you balance, um, you know, kind of top-down with bottoms-up in terms of determining, um, the game plan for, for a given client?
Gregg Schoppman: That, that's a great question. And, uh, [00:22:00] for me, you know, there is that tension. Uh, it's funny, construction has always had some inherent, uh, rocks in the road. You know, whether it be the designers and a construction company, they tend to fight like cats and dogs. Um, you know, in some cases you have, you know, the office and field, to, to your point.
You know, how do we make sure that there isn't this feeling of disenfranchisement amongst the field? "The office sends us a bunch of garbage. They n- they always put me on jobs that are not suited," or, you know, "Our clients are bad." And, and to me, I get it. It ... But it's the equivalent of an, you know, a football team.
We're on the cusp of football season here, and, you know, the idea of, you know, the, the offense and the defense hating one another. It's like, you know, to me, you know, we wanna complement one another, not necessarily resent one another when we go out and kind of, you know, charge against the enemy. And by the way, that's not to say our clients [00:23:00] are the enemies, uh, the builders, I should say.
My point is, as we're going forward, though, how do we make sure from my perspective we're getting the right amount of, you know, field love, so to speak? Um, you know, I often think about, uh, you know, the movie Gladiator. Um, the, the original one back in, what was it, 1999. I'm maybe dating myself here a bit, but there was that line that the
I forget what it was. He was an older gladiator, and he said to Russell Crowe, he goes, "You win the crowd, you win your freedom." You know, that, you know, part of it is realizing That, you know, we, we can sit here all day long and, you know, talk to the CEO or the corner offices, the executive team, and say the right things.
But at the end of the day, the field is the one that has to buy into our solutions. And [00:24:00] I, I'll say, I, I think, you know, over my 22 years at FMI, uh, I'll say good bedside manner i, is probably... I mean, that's important. But it's being genuine and, more importantly, understanding what the field goes through, what project managers go through as well.
It's not an easy job. It is incredibly challenging. In fact, it's one of the most challenging businesses because you're working in the elements. You're building complex projects with newer building materials. Um, you know, and l- let's be candid, sometimes the designs aren't really as well thought out as they should be, and the field is the one that has to make this stuff come alive.
Um, and having a deep appreciation for what those men and women go through is very important. So any solution we come up with, I... They're the, the crowd in this [00:25:00] case in the gladiator example. And to me, the CEO, the executive team, th- those women and men, you know, they just wanna see the results. "Do I have a, a great company culture?
Are we making money the way we should? Are we safe?" That's an important piece, obviously. And I think, you know, whether or not we're kinda winning the corner office, let's win the field and make sure that we celebrate the field. And I'll tell you this, the, the companies out there that glorify the field are the ones that are most successful.
Um, that, and whether it's anecdotal or data-based, I can tell you, those that have the field figured out and appreciate what that group goes through are gonna be more successful. How you do it? You gotta listen. You gotta amp that up and make sure we're really listening to what the field is saying and what they're needing
Jason Jacobs: Uh, so in the, um, in the Silicon [00:26:00] Valley model of services, it seems like, uh, there's a term being thrown around a lot of forward deployed engineer. Um, how, how are you guys thinking about the concept of, um, embedding? Is there a period of embedding and observation, um, on the front end of a project or, um, um, yeah, or, or is there an alternate approach?
Gregg Schoppman: W- and to be clear, when you talk about a project, are you talking about, like, a, an engagement for us or, or... Yeah, I mean, one of the big things that, that we're doing a fair amount of is, is spending time, uh, not only interviewing our clients' people, but, you know, eh, getting to know a day in the life of what a project looks like.
And, you know, I know it, it, it often hearkens that, that movie Office Space. You know, we come in and we're a little like the Bobs, and I think, you know, being a Silicon Valley reference there, um, you know what I'm talking about. We're not like the Bobs, but it, it is very reminiscent of the, "Just tell me [00:27:00] about what you're seeing, what you're doing."
Now, one person is not a trend. It's a data point. So if one individual says, "Hey, Gregg, you know, uh, we stink at closing out jobs," that, that's great, but talk to me about what that process looks like, a closing out. "Well, we never get punch lists done," or, "We, uh, can't seem to get O&M manuals or as-built drawings or even just the final bill out the door."
Um, you know, well- When I start to hear that over and over and over again, and I have sat in many a project meeting, I've sat in pre-construction kickoffs. I've also sat in turnover meetings. And you might say, "What's the difference?" Well, one sounds very checklisty, and that's not a good choice of words, but it's plans, got it, check.
Uh, specs, got it, check. We all good? Um, and it, it becomes, you know, a very [00:28:00] perfunctory step versus the first one that I said, which was much more collaborative. "Hey, when you went out and did your site visit, uh, what did you see? You know, I, I bid it this way, but were you seeing something different? Uh, you know, hey, we think the biggest safety hazard is going to be this or this.
What do you think?" Those discussions, those collaborations are a heck of a lot more powerful than a dictation, and having me sit through one of those things is very, very important. Um, I go out to job sites, see how a job site is set up. Uh, very recently I was at one, uh, here, uh, in the Tampa Bay area where I live and, yeah, kind of rare home gig, got to go see what the job site looked like.
And I'll, I'll say it was interesting because, you know, there had... they had a safety issue that had popped up. Nothing, uh, too eGreggious, but [00:29:00] to s- be the fly on the wall and see how people react to when stuff is going maybe not so well, um, is important. You know, who did they call when the safety issue popped up?
What did the trade partners do? Uh, you know, was it preventative? You know, and as I said, this was more of a, you know, a near miss incident than an actual accident, but it's all the same. But what was the, uh, behaviors that occurred after that? The moral to the, this whole discussion is, I need to see what a day in the life looks like for those supes, those PMs, those foremen, and, and I...
Depends on what everybody calls them. Every company I work with calls people different. My thing is, what are the job descriptions? Uh, you know, what do we want these people to do? And I think that's the important piece to this. But seeing what that day in the life is [00:30:00] provides a really powerful lesson and when we apply the right solution.
Jason Jacobs: It, it, it, it seems like there's a challenge in that, um, from a trust standpoint, if you're coming in as an outsider, you know, kind of land and expand, start small with something tangible, you know, earn trust and credibility, start seeping into other workflows, and then take on more strategic stuff over time. So maybe an example of that, just in my mind, and this is all, this is-- it's all for feedback, but, um, uh, but, but would be, um, you know, "Shirky won't bond us for enough because our spread between estimating and actuals is, is too high. Can you help us tighten it up?" Right? So that's more kind of contained, right?
Versus like, "Our margin is fading and we don't know why." Right? Um,
uh, and so we have to kinda look holistically to start, you know, to identify, um, uh, where an issue is. Is there... You know, do you tend to start more on the narrow side and then expand once you're in, or do you tend to start more holistic out of the gate?
Gregg Schoppman: Um, [00:31:00] for us, you know, we wanna look at the whole patient, you know, keeping in mind someone may start with... A, a good example is I had a client that came to me and says, "Hey Gregg, we're having a lot of last-minute emergency calls to the yard and the warehouse, and as a result, we're missing deadlines because the yard is not getting the materials out to the job site quick enough.
Can you look at the yard and tell us why we're not performing well?" Well, by itself, it seems like a pretty easy solution, you know, like, well, uh, you know, what's happening? Well, as I was in there, um, and some of the what I call due diligence questions. "Well, talk to me about how we start jobs." "Oh, well, we put together a three-ring binder and lob it over the wall," and I'm paraphrasing right now.
"Talk to me about how your foremen and superintendents do their weekly planning and daily planning and closeout planning." And, and the answer was, "Don't [00:32:00] have it, don't do it, nothing happens there, and we're poor at it." Well, this goes back to kind of the question you had asked me before, Jason, specifically around, you know, are we treating a symptom?
Are we treating the real issue here? Um, you know, it's like, "Well, I, you know, my arm hurts. You know, maybe it's because I've been throwing too many fastballs." You know, no, you may have a bigger problem that we wanna make sure, um... And, and I'm not trying to over-prescribe, so part of my job in the upfront piece of this is to ask a lot of these right questions and get the client to realize that, sure, you can go out, and let's find a new yard manager, you know, and that'll solve all our problems.
Uh, well, you insert a new yard manager, and they're still having late stuff show up to the job site, and they're still not making money. And we've replaced that person, and we still have the problem, and rinse, recycle, repeat. My point [00:33:00] is, you know-
I think we like to see it, not that we're trying to be everything and, "Hey, you need the full executive physical." Um, but at the same time, I think you're also trying to hit an easy button, um, versus, "Hey, we just wanna make sure our employees have good training, and we think FMI would be a great complement to that.
So let's, uh, you know, develop a training program. And, you know, we're doing all this stuff really, really well already. Um, blah, blah, blah." Perfect. Then let's just do a training program. Um, so I, I think each case is very different, but we have to be smart enough to not, say, swing at the first pitch and go, "Sure, let's come in there and solve, get your bonding capacity up."
Well, that might not be the right thing for them. In fact, it might be the worst thing for them is to increase their bonding capacity 'cause they're underperforming [00:34:00] already. So, um, I don't know if that answered your question, Jason, or not, but it, it's something that's very real and I saw very recently happen, so
Jason Jacobs: It does. Um, yeah, and, and you, um, uh, you said that technology's been coming up more and more in your clients. Um, uh, why is that and, and in, in, in, in what way is it tending to come up or, or what's the context around it?
Gregg Schoppman: Yeah, I, I think, you know, there, there's the two sides of the coin. You have your, your first example of, um, AI dominates so many conversations in just about every aspect of business and personal life. So the question is, well, what do I need to do there to make sure I'm not falling behind? So that's number one.
Number two is we've seen our industry, you know, be challenged with finding capable folks that want to do construction as a career. Um, well, if there's no bodies out there, [00:35:00] then we're gonna have to come up with an alternate solution, and that may be in the form of autonomous vehicles, robotics, AI. Um, and just like you see in, uh, the-- there's a fast food restaurant, uh, near my home that has the, the kiosks now and, you know, the idea of, well, we can go and order on the kiosk, you know, it allows us to not have to worry about finding, you know, folks to do fast food operation.
It's not the total solution, it's a solution that will help us. So I think it, it's two-sided. The, the challenge, once again, is making sure people don't think it's the panacea. Well, great, we'll get AI, and we don't need project managers anymore. Well, wait a second, that, that doesn't make any sense because someone still needs to be the quarterback.
We're not just gonna let AI run amok here. Um, same thing with autonomous vehicles, you know. We're, we're not just gonna have a bunch of front end loaders and excavators running on a job site without [00:36:00] someone, you know, I call adult supervision. Um, the point is, you know, it's creating an excitement or a buzz that maybe we haven't seen in a hot minute in construction because of the capabilities of AI and a lot of these other solutions that are out there.
I think the question is, is it gonna be an off-the-shelf solution? Is it using Claude or Chat or insert, you know, AI engine here? Um, I think it's all of the above, and it should be exciting, but it's not going to be a replacement for, it's another tool in your toolbox. And you're gonna have to be thinking about it from the strategic and operational sense because it doesn't do itself.
Um, you're gonna have to still have someone be quality control. Otherwise, you'll run amok there too
Jason Jacobs: And when it comes to, um, determining, uh, how to prioritize, where to [00:37:00] start, um, build versus buy, building tooling, customizing it, maintaining it over time, um, is that an FMI lane today? Will that be an FMI lane tomorrow?
Gregg Schoppman: Um, a- ask that again just, just so I'm, I'm just kinda following you there. Sorry
Jason Jacobs: Yeah. So, um, I mean, you've talked a lot about kind of people process workflows, right? Um, and that technology's coming up more and more. Um, when it comes to the technology, if I'm Suffolk, right, I've got a big innovation team, and I am-- I have four deployed engineers on every project site. I'm going back to the lab, and I'm building tooling in between workflows to make my processes more efficient.
Um, uh, you know, I also have a whole team of people that can assess and evaluate and pilot and, and determine if we are gonna buy off the shelf. Like, what are we gonna buy, and how do we customize it to make sure it matches our workflows? Um, are those types of services for, you know, maybe the mid-size shops that aren't Suffolk, right, um, uh, that, that you guys tend to work with, um, are those types of services that FMI [00:38:00] provides?
Gregg Schoppman: Yes. And I, and I think if nothing else, we're, we try to be that catalyst,
um, to, to get you to be able to do that. A good for instance, I mean, the... Let's say 10, 15 years ago, IT directors, you know, that, you know, ran o- in organizations, you know, it was, "Hey, let's make sure that, you know, our computers are working, our network is, is working, we have good backup, the phones are talking with one another."
Well, in 2026, the, the line between the IT department and operations department is very much more of a, a merged lane, and it should be a merged lane going forward. So how do we make sure that we're implementing, you know, whatever, uh, Claude is, you know, kind of tasking us with to do? 'Cause the last thing we wanna do is now just have a project manager using this kind of, uh, you [00:39:00] know, great chat prompt, you know, that they've come up with to analyze change orders or to look at their data stream.
Well, the answer is it's probably gonna go backwards and say, "Well, I need to make sure that the whole company's doing this, but I don't know how to do that. I'm, I'm not an IT director." So this kind of chief information officer needs to be positioned right so they're not viewed as the IT director that just comes when my computer is acting up or I can't print or something.
And, and I think that has to be thought of strategically, which is part of what we do, as well as from an operations perspective, how do we use these tools the right way? I mean, granted, I, I, I can't necessarily write a, a prompt for every single situation, but let's make sure we have the problem, and then we kind of use whatever solutions.
Because you're right, I mean, if, if we're a midsize general [00:40:00] contractor, it's not necessarily going to be this expensive off-the-shelf, um, solution. It's probably gonna come from a series of, I call it singles and doubles, you know? And wow, all our PMs are using Claude very effectively, but how do we harness that?
Someone's gotta be the quarterback or offensive coordinator to make sure we're guiding that appropriately.
Jason Jacobs: When you look at industries like construction, um, that are so physical, that are so labor-intensive, um, uh, do you see AI as more of a sustaining innovation that will kind of eke out some efficiencies? Or is it more disruptive in nature where it will fundamentally revamp how these shops run and, and the future of the trades?
Gregg Schoppman: That, that's a great question, and I, um, I think, you know, for many organizations it is gonna be the, um, uh, we'll say the, the incremental improvements. However, I have [00:41:00] clients that consistently tell me that they want to be that industry disruptor. Now, that says easy, does hard, using that phrase again. It's gonna take a minute to be able to do that, and how you revolutionize the, um, ideation of a building to the final closeout and making sure that entire process, uh, runs smoothly, it's a complicated thing.
Um, and how do we bring the right partners, because are, uh, are we big enough to be this in- industry disruptor? Um, the answer is, I think so many companies are probably gonna come up with these incremental ideas that will help universally revolutionize our business. And we'll look across the aisle and go, "Wow, look at that civil contractor who's using all that robotics and autom- or, uh, automation on autonomous [00:42:00] vehicles to be successful.
Why can't we do that, you know, in the electrical business?" And it's, it's gonna become that observation, um, that we then stay one step ahead, you know, in the mechanical or electrical side. Is that revolutionary or disrupting? It possibly could be. Um, but I will say it's also has a lot of my clients very concerned because they're saying, "Wait a second, uh, if we're not careful, we could become very obsolete.
Um, and the last thing we want is to, you know, not be able to perform because heck, we don't self-perform anything. We're just a, uh, you know, commercial general contractor with PMs and Supes. So how do we make sure we're still relevant?" And I think, you know, it should cause us all a moment to, you know, at least say, "Well, what are we bringing to the table?"
If you're not innovating, you know, you could be left behind pretty quickly[00:43:00]
Jason Jacobs: Uh-huh. Well, gosh, I have so many questions I wanna ask, but I'm gonna choose wisely 'cause I know we're running up on
time. So I'm gonna ask two more, if that's okay. Um, one's FMI specific and one's more industry specific. So the FMI specific is, um, to what degree is technology like it, um, AI, um, uh, materially changing how FMI operates?
Gregg Schoppman: Uh, I, I will say dramatically in the last, uh, nine to 12 months alone, whether it is equipping us with the right tools to help our clients. But I, I've said before, I, I've been doing this for 22 years, a little bit of gray hair just being in the industry as well. Um, how do we make sure we're getting our newer associates up to speed?
Because to say, "Wow, y- you're, you're not gonna be able to release to the wild until you get a bunch of gray hair and 22 years of, in the industry," that, that's [00:44:00] not gonna work for us either. So part of what we're actively doing is leveraging it for information. We talked about the proprietary data that FMI sits on.
Well, not, not just, you know, the clouds of the world, but more importantly our own AI engine that we've created, which is exciting, uh, as well. But it's people development, it's giving... you know, democratizing our data, and we have to be very-- we're very careful with how we, uh, use this because once again, with great, uh, power comes great responsibility.
Um, and making sure we're leveraging this to make an industry smarter, but helping our team be smarter, which is, uh, exciting. And I'll say it's just helped me think about things differently, um, even down to, you know, doing a spreadsheet and I, I know I'm dating myself a little bit when I mention, you know, using pivot tables.
Uh, [00:45:00] you know, that, that was exhausting as a junior consultant coming in and, you know, now it's like, here, I want to create something that looks at this data very quickly and having it done for me, um, it's, it's a phenomenal tool. But having my junior associates be able to do that, but understand what they're doing, why they're doing it, that, that's the human element that we still need to have.
So I'll say it's absolutely transforming how we think and making us better as well
Jason Jacobs: Uh, and last question is just with your futurist hat on, uh, if you look out 10 years, um, and had to predict, um, what's the same about how construction operates, what's different about how construction operates, and if you had one wish for how you hope it will operate, what is it?
Gregg Schoppman: I, I think the first and foremost in the short term, you know, we'll say five years, five to 10 years, the humans will still be there. Um, you know, sure, if you had asked young Gregg, uh, "Do you think there'll be [00:46:00] autonomous vehicles on job sites?" and the AI, you know, uh, argument that we're having today, or not argument but, you know, discussion we're having, the answer is I don't know.
The fact is we are, and that's an exciting thing. The humans will still be here. Um, so that to me is exciting, and I think, you know, it- as far as one of the things that, um, I am hoping that it will help augment the image of our industry, which once again, it's arguably... And I, I know I'm a little bit of a, a, a fan here of our industry, but the fact is it's one of the greatest industries in our country, and the stuff we do is absolutely amazing and we just...
They signed a deal to build a new stadium here in Tampa, and seeing the renderings and, and knowing the amount, the thousands of people it will take to build that is phenomenal, and that's gonna be humans that are doing that. Um, [00:47:00] but I think the appreciation for the humans is the part that I'm excited about.
So hopefully it inspires, you know, uh, you know, folks in trade schools and high schools and, you know, uh, young folks, uh, around the state to go, "I wanna build that, because that just looks cool." And hopefully with the AI and this technology, it's helping kinda augment and get people to realize that, hey, it's not just working in the hot Florida sun to build a stadium, it's building with a, um, a purpose.
It's building with the most sophisticated tools. So hopefully from an image perspective will be construction industry 2.0 that absolutely is the most desirable industry to be in, and more importantly, get people excited.
Jason Jacobs: Uh, well, Gregg, this was, um, such a great far-reaching discussion. Is there anything that I didn't ask that you wish I did, or any parting [00:48:00] words?
Gregg Schoppman: Oh, well, like I said, we're on the cusp of, of sports season, and, uh, like I said, uh, ask me how the Gators are gonna do or the Bucs will do, and I'll probably give you another fanboy response. But, uh, suffice to say, this has been exciting, Jason, and, and I hope, uh, it's been, uh, worthwhile for, uh, you and your listeners as well
Jason Jacobs: Well, Gregg, thanks so much for coming on the show and
looking forward to keeping in touch. And yeah, thanks for all the great work that you do for the industry
Gregg Schoppman: Thank you, sir
Jason Jacobs: That's it for this episode of BuiltForward. I hope you enjoyed it. If you found it useful, share it with someone building in the industry and follow the show so you don't miss what's next. Thanks for listening, and see you next week